Bali Rashtra

‘Define Muslims before giving quota’

Jul 02, 2014

Prakash Ambedkar and Shravan Deore at the Age Round Table on Monday — rajesh jadhav

After the announcement of reservations for Muslims, there has been a debate over whether reservation should be provided on the basis of religion. However, advocate Prakash Ambedkar, an eminent guest at Age Round Table along with OBC activist Professor Shravan Deore, pointed out the government has to first define who Muslims are. He said that Islam is a religion, but legally speaking, there is no community called “Muslim”. Excerpts from the conversation.

Ambedkar: When we say that Marathas are in power there, we should consider what holds back Marathas? There are two distinct roots known as Kunbis and Marathas in Konkan. Kunbis are also known as Kulwadis, the tenants on the lands. They are tillers. The population of Marathas is very small but they possess lands. In western Maharashtra the situation is the same. They can be further divided like those who were with the Nizams and those who were with Shivaji Maharaj. During Shivaji’s period, the revenue system was as good as our present system. During the Nizam period the revenue system had Sardars, Inamdars, Jahagirdars, feudal lords etc. These feudal loards basically had all the lands and the Marathas who were not part of the Nizam’s system were landless peasants. They were benefited from former chief minister Yashwantrao Chavan’s ‘Kasel Tyachi Jamin’ in 1960s. According to this Act, the tiller of the land would be the owner. Despite this, Marathas possess 72 per cent of the land in the state. However, there are only 3,000 families who hold political, economic power, cooperative institutions and the land while the rest are left out. The so-called upper rich Marathas will marry a girl from Kunbis, but not vice versa. So the taboo still remains within the community. Even sharing power within Marathas doesn’t exist.

Are you suggesting that Maratha identity is too wide for caste-based reservation for all Marathas?
Ambedkar: Today a section of Marathas is lagging behind. Like it emerged in the Sachar Commission, within the Muslims there is a very high class and there is an extremely low class. The situation is the same with landless Marathas. They are not accepted within their community for being landless and they cannot move out as they are despised by others for being from the ruling society. This is where the government needs to do something. Giving them a separate reservation was necessary because frustration is creeping in and there is talk of revolt within them.

What sort of revolt?
Ambedkar: A feeling “now we should have something radical because democracy is not giving us an opportunity to come up”.

Don’t you see reservation as radical?
Ambedkar: I don’t see reservation as radical. But the person who gets reservation just feels that they are being given some assistance to creep into the system.

There must be many other ways you can creep into the system?
Ambedkar: Yes, there are many but none of them are being discussed.

The total reservation in the state goes to 73 per cent, one per cent more for Tamil Nadu. The Supreme Court said that you can have only 50 per cent. Will it (Maratha reservation) stand legal scrutiny?

Ambedkar: Actually the SC decision of 50 per cent is merely a guideline. There is no bar or embargo that it should be limited to only 50 per cent.

But 73 per cent is very high.
Ambedkar: If you are not going to give the opportunity, then people are going to ask for a backdoor entry.

In case of reservation for the Muslim community I have read somewhere that the minister for minority affairs suggested that skill development could be a better option. Do you feel so?
Ambedkar: First of all, let me ask where did this word “Muslim” come from? That is the biggest hurdle. In Pakistan, India and Bangladesh, those who believe in Islam and Prophet Mohammed are known as Muslims, but the religion is Islam. If you ask them, they will mention biradari names like Ansari, Pinajari, Gawali, Teli etc. There is no biradari known as Muslim. So if the government is giving reservation to Muslims, it should first define who Muslims are.

Are you against reservation to Muslims?
Ambedkar: I am not.

Then why are you questioning Muslims?
Ambedkar: This is an abstract idea that has been brought about in the ordinance. You will be informing the followers of Islam that reservations will be given to them when, in practice, there is no Muslim class. They will be running helter-skelter. Muslim is a terminology used by the Hindus to identify the followers of Islam. However, the British or the present government have not codified it.

Deore: Some Muslims are already getting reservation under the OBC category.
Ambedkar: The OBC list is not based on religion. The castes included in OBC have Hindus as well as Muslims. So there are certain common names or nomenclatures where they exist in Hindus and also in Muslims like Pinjaris and Khatiks. When you want to make a law, it has to be based on whatever vocabulary is used in legal terms. You can’t use a nomenclature that is used in common
parlance.

(To Mr Deore) What is your stand on Maratha reservation?
Deore: When the Mandal Commission report was brought in the Parliament in 1981, the Maratha Mahasagh was formed to oppose it. Their slogan was “Mandal is Bundal” and founder leader Anna Patil threatened to burn the state if it was implemented. Later, activists like me mobilised people about the situation that resulted in then Prime Minister V.P. Singh approving the Commission’s recommendations. He also felt that OBCs have become aware of the situation and we can cash in on the vote bank. The case went to the Supreme Court and then from 1993 it was implemented. With the help of reservations, the OBCs basically became aware of the system and wanted to climb the next ladder of going into politics. That’s when they got the 27 per cent reservation in local bodies. OBCs, including Nhai, Teli, Mali started sharing power, which was disapproved by the Marathas. They started demanding reservations in OBC category from 1999 with the intention to stop OBCs from getting into power.
Coming back to reservation, the Narayan Rane Committee has said there are 32 per cent of Marathas in the state. But that is a wrong figure. Does it include Kunbis? If yes, then Kunbis are already included in OBC category for reservation. If Marathas are 32 per cent, then Kunbis are even more and their population will be much more.
The SC has said that every state should have a backward class commission. We also have it. Despite that why was the Rane Committee was formed? They cannot do that legally.

The reservation given to Marathas is 50 per cent of their population. So do other communities have similar reservation in accordance with their population?
Deore: Yes, the scheduled castes and scheduled tribes have got reservations as per their population. In Maharashtra, scheduled castes have 15 per cent and scheduled tribes have seven per cent. The Mandal Commission had recommended 50 per cent reservation to the OBCs whose population is 52 per cent. However, the SC said the reservation should not exceed 50 per cent and therefore the OBCs were given 27 per cent excluding scheduled castes and scheduled tribes.

What do you have to say about reservation versus merit?
Ambedkar: What do you call merit? Mugging up things is not merit. Unfortunately, merit in this country is mugging capacity and nothing more. Despite having merit holders as government officials, our country is doing so poorly. Where is the merit then? Why can’t we see that?

Do you think that technology will make reservations irrelevant?
Ambedkar: No I don’t think so. Whatever technology comes up, at the entrance there is not going to be any technology. It is the human beings who are going to be considered at the entry point. After the entrance then it becomes how to upgrade things, how to enrich them and how to get work done very fast.

Since its beginning what was the intention of providing reservations? Is the agenda to stop inbuilt hatred or that everyone gets jobs? Also has it helped?
Ambedkar: The idea of giving reservation in the British period is that you had social taboo on who could learn. Only a few communities were allowed to learn and educate themselves the rest were not. These taboos being were followed when the British started the schools. To break the taboo, the system came out with reservations in schools and the government came up with the positive policy in 1905. Later, the percentage for admission came in. At that time these people would qualify 50-55 per cent and higher caste students would go up to 80-85 per cent. Therefore education in reservation was a must and then it became into the jobs.

Do you think reservation has been a success? Everyone is still cribbing...
Ambedkar: The latest report has come out saying that 70 per cent of the scheduled castes and 60 per cent of scheduled tribes are now school-going. Due to education, the benefits that we have received in their allied works is much higher. If you see the report by the Schedule Caste Commission then even education has now benefited them in competing with others in different fields. Now the competition has started.

Deore: Reservation is not to uplift the poor. Reservation was introduced to change mindsets, to create an intellectual class in every caste. Reservation has brought change in society. The number of inter-caste marriages are going up.

But, nowadays whoever has money and power gets recognition…
Deore: Power doesn’t come only with money or else only the Tatas, Birlas would have become the Prime Minister. Why did they have to push an OBC leader like Narendra Modi for the Prime Minister’s post? There was no Modi wave actually. During the independence period, there was a Muslim vote bank, which was nurtured by Congress. Later, a dalit vote bank was created in 1965 after Dr Babasaheb Ambekar’s agitation. That was also nurtured by Congress by making one of the leaders as its president. But after 1985, the OBC vote bank was created. However, this vote bank is not aggressive, it does not come on to the roads. It brings changes in undercurrents. Knowing the fact, then Prime Minister V.P. Singh brought the Mandal Commission to cash in on the OBC votebank. With a view to stop the mobilisation of this OBC vote bank, the BJP and the RSS started the Ram Mandir issue. They also wanted that the OBCs should not have a separate identity other than being Hindus. But the Ram Mandir issue did not last long. The OBCs went on uniting. There were only Brahmins and Kshatriya chief ministers ruling in Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh and Bihar till then. But after the implementation of Mandal Commission recommendations in 1993, no Brahmin or Kshatriya has become the chief minister nor will they become the CM in future. The OBC votebank has strengthened so much by 2014 that it cannot be broken in the name of religion or Ram Mandir. Knowing this fact, the RSS declared Mr Modi’s name as the Prime Ministerial candidate. If you observe carefully, Mr Modi has said in all his speeches during the campaign that he was an OBC, trying to establish his caste identity. Later, in the campaigns, he even specified his caste. It was made necessary for him to declare his caste. In our country, you cannot even get water without being asked your caste.

Do we really have that situation?
Deore: Yes, in rural areas if you ask for water, they will first ask you where have you come from. If that does not establish your identity, then they ask you your surname. Despite that if they cannot identify the person, they directly ask you your caste. If you have to tell your caste to get drinking water then you will also have to reveal it when asking for votes. Mr Modi did that.

A recommendation from the Backward Class Commission is necessary for reservation. Without the recommendations the government cannot take the decision. On what basis has this suggestion come?

Deore: The first question that will be asked in court is whether the Backward Class Commission has recommended the reservation? If not, then it will be out.

Ambedkar: A judgment by the constitutional bench has said whichever caste a state government wants to provide reservation to, it has to first establish that this is a backward caste. Then the community should be identified as a group in its own and then the state’s backward commission should recommend it. Without the recommendations, no reservations can be allowed. This is the guideline that has been followed by the Supreme Court in many of its judgments.
We are not aware of whether the state’s Backward Class Commission has given any recommendations.

Deore: Mr Bhatia (the present head of the commission) has questioned the state government on repeatedly asking for recommendations when the earlier reports were not in favour of it.

Please tell us about the reservation policy in other countries
Ambedkar: Reservation is present in some form or the other in every country. For example, the Americans call it affirmative action they don’t call it reservation. A committee was formed in Durban in the year 2000 where the main theme was elimination of all forms of discrimination. Nearly 136 countries came forward and said that they would like to have some sort of positive discriminatory policy for those ethnic, migratory groups who are marginalised and therefore today you have around 180 countries where this policy is followed.

Despite reservation there is still a section of the society that has not benefited. There are children who cannot afford education and (adults) cannot get jobs despite having reservation.
Ambedkar: Reservation is not there for economic development or for uplifting people. It is a psychological issue where those who were denied rights now have rights. Reservation has a psychological impact where it forces people to think about it in a different manner.
If you want education to reach to all corners, first and foremost, primary education has to be made compulsor. Secondary education also has to be compulsory, but the expenditure has to be borne by the state. In our country, unless you bring these private institutions within the control of the district administration as they have in the US, you will not have an education that reaches everyone.

Do you think it makes sense to have a cap as to how many years reservation for a particular community should last?
Ambedkar: That is an in-built system, which is supposed to be there. It is not that reservation should be perpetual. The schedule of caste, which is included in the schedule list, it is not that there is a perpetual reservation for them. A commission should be established after 30 years and see what benefits they have received and that report has to be placed before the Parliament and then the Parliament would take a decision whether to continue the reservation.
This exercise was done once in 1969, but the Parliament was dissolved in between and therefore the exercise couldn’t be completed. After that no political leader has had the guts to set up a commission and examine it.

Do you think that Mr Modi is a bigger Dalit than Mulayam and Mayawati or is it that Mr Modi, despite being an OBC, has been able to sell the development mantra?

Ambedkar: There was no Modi wave. It was a wave in favour of Anna Hazare and Mr Kejriwal. These were the two people who built up the anti-Congress wave. The wave first wanted total change, then if total change was not available then whatever substitution was available, and the third, if substitution
was not available then repetition comes into the picture. Total change was advocated by these two, but they
couldn’t realise it because they disintegrated within themselves and the BJP was the substitute with Mr Modi as the face.

Deore: Despite the anti-Congress wave in 1977, the party was not massacred the way it has been in the 2014 elections. So I think the OBC wave has risen all over India that Mr Modi cashed on. So if you ask if Mr Modi is a bigger dalit than Mayawati and Mulayam, I would say that whatever work Mulayam did six months prior to this election was anti-OBC. OBC candidates who appeared for the UPSC or MPSC examination earned their seat on the basis of merit in open seats. Mulayam then put them in the OBC category, the students protested and the matter went to the Supreme Court, which then also said that the OBC students who have got merit should be put in the open category. Despite this, Mulayam put the students OBC category. Due to this Apna Dal, a party in UP formed an alliance with Mr Modi and gave two of their seats to the BJP. Apna Dal then held protests throughout the state that no media covered and Mulayam was nowhere. Now all the OBCs — other than the Yadavs — who were with Mulayam left him and joined hands with Mr Modi saying Mulayam is fake OBC. Now the OBCs saw that a OBC candidate will directly become the PM and this emotional attachment attracted them.

But it was not just the OBC factor, it was the message that Mr Modi was sending out…
Ambekdar: The BJP contested 325 seats, which was 60 per cent of the total number of seats. If you take it up to 543 then it comes down to 30 per cent. So even where they had not contested this percentage was up. The question is that there was a massive wave against the Congress and that wave wanted a change. The hatred towards the Congress would also come into being against Mr Modi if there is price rise and if the situation becomes worse, but people want somebody who can control the situation.

Do you think reservation will have impact on the upcoming Assembly polls?
Ambedkar: I think until the policy is implemented we cannot decide. The question is how many people are going to benefit.

In your opinion, was it a political decision rather than a social one?
Ambedkar: A section of the Marathas do require reservation. We fought for the OBCs when the OBCs themselves were asleep, but then they were awakened. Marathas, like the OBCs and the SC/STs, should have an independent reservation and not be mixed with any other
caste. Within this structure that we have developed, reservation is a way that can give them emotional satisfaction that the government is doing something for me. The government should extend this emotional satisfaction to whoever is going to ask for it.

But was it not the failure of the Maratha leaders who have been ruling the state since its formation?
Ambedkar: The Marathas leaders are only ruling for themselves and no one else

Is ‘caste politics’ a dirty word? It is understood to be of selfish nature when you say caste politics, but for the ones who have fought for reservation and OBC status...when the term caste politics is used then, is it good?

Deore: Caste politics, if used to get rid of caste bias, is good. People say that caste-based reservation propagates casteism, but if we get reservation we also see that people’s destinies are changing and casteism decreasing. If someone is taking part in caste politics to strengthen the bias then it is dirty.

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